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13 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Wow, ol' Dr. Dino sure went out with a bang, didn't he? Did you see how many hundreds of thousands of dollars that guy was pocketing? Holy crap, how much income do you have to generate to owe almost half a million in past due employee withholding taxes? And did you see the sealed indictment? It looks like they were worried he was gonna hole up like Koresh and get into a gun battle with 'em!
What happened to "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" (Mt. 22:21)? What happened to "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers" (Rom. 13:1)? Looks like we have another lawless theist. Theists are so prone to confusing themselves with the god they imagine that they think they, like the god they worship, can get away with murder.
I'd say it's time Dr. Dino crawls back under his stone-age rock.
You took the words right out of my mouth, Dawson. It looks like this chap was another self-appointed hypocrite.
But, Dawson, proprtion, please. This gentleman has got his come-uppance for tax evasion, not murder. I know they got Capone over the same charges, but that does NOT make 'Dr. Dino' Al Capone. Tax evasion is wrong, muder is wrong.
But the two are not the same. This chap will pay the penalty for his sin of lawlessness, as is only right, however. Believe me, as a Christian, my thoughts about this chap were the same as yours.
I'm sorry that you think that MMO'H is "my own ilk" just because she shares a disbelief that God exists with me. I don't think that Hitler is "your own ilk" just because he believed in a God, and followed the long-standing traditions of Christianity in his anti-Semitism.
Hovind is slime. Anyone who makes a living leeching off of the naive is.
If MMO'H evaded taxes, and tried to run from the law, then she is just as immoral, although I have to say not quite as slimy, by dint of the fact that Dino makes people believe he represents God and they throw money at him for it (out of their stupidity). MMO'H cannot be faulted for using such a pathetic tactic to gain money, which makes her at least a little less slimy than Hovind, if what you said is true (I've never read the first thing on the woman).
I hope Hovind goes to prison for a LOOOONG time. It isn't like he hasn't been running from the law for 30 years, it's just that he's stayed in this country and used tricks to evade the law, rather than distance and geography.
BTW, Frank, Christians get "busted" every day for things. I don't "whoop". Hovind is a special kind of con man, and one who I would love to see go down whether he was a Jew, Muslim, or Xian (or any other religion), for his lies and deceit in both miseducating the public and in considering himself above the law and taxes.
Sad that you'd think he was a Christian at all. I doubt that he really believes half of what he says.
hiraeth: "But, Dawson, proprtion, please. This gentleman has got his come-uppance for tax evasion, not murder... Tax evasion is wrong, muder is wrong...But the two are not the same. This chap will pay the penalty for his sin of lawlessness."
I'm not sure I follow. You're telling me to be mindful of "proportion," when in fact your worldview teaches that both tax-evasion and murder result in precisely the same punishment, namely eternal damnation? It seems you've misdirected your recommendation. I have merely expressed a passing opinion, and have no jurisdiction over Hovind or murderers, either here in this world, or in the fake environment of the "hereafter."
It's a literary device, Frank, and a very popular one. It's used to announce that someone is replacing someone else in some office or post. I'm insinuating that Hovind's former reign as Christian creationist extraordinaire is over, and that the succession is now to a low-life criminal (himself).
You know something, Dawson. I've long been hacked off with people like you who, having been caught engaging in a little hyperbole go off and make cheap points.
I'm asking you to be mindful of proportion in regard to the law of the land wherein you live. That DOES make a distinction between murder and tax-evasion. Which, anyhow, are different crimes.
Besides, I do not believe that the Bible teaches that every sin will be punished the same. There is clear evidence in Scripture that furnace will be heated differently (see the comment about those who cause 'these little ones' to stumble).
In the end, I condemn what Hovind did, and for the most part I agreed with your comments about him. The man was a fraud and a cheat and got his come-uppance for declaring himself to be against the law. That is a tremendously bad example.
nsfl, I'm glad you can recognise the difference between Hitler and your average Christian. But we have to say that it isn't recognising the Hitlers in this world that is hard, it is recognising the plausible con-artists who live among us, whether Christian or atheist.
And again, less of the cheap 'anti-semitic' jibe. It was the Puritan Oliver Cromwell who allowed the Jews back into England, because of his view of millenial prophecy. Yes, there is a long and dishonourable record of association between Christians and anti-Semites, but as one who stood with a jew against an anti-Semitic sacking, I resent any implication that this has anything to do with true Christianity as much as I'm sure you'd deny that selfish living has to do with atheism.
If you are serious about courtesy, nsfl, you need to stop putting these useless, pointless barbs in your work. You could just have mentioned how Walton would disclaim any connection with anti-semitism, not theism.
Sorry, that should have been 'Hitler because of his twisted version of theism'. I'm still not sure about Hitler and theism, though. If he was a theist, he'd have to have been a weak one. Totalitarianism needs the state to stand in the place of God.
Again, you're not making yourself very clear. My *what* "does not" do *what*?
hiraeth: "You know something, Dawson. I've long been hacked off with people like you who, having been caught engaging in a little hyperbole go off and make cheap points."
No, I didn't know this. Now that you've been doing it for a while, what have you achieved by "hacking off"?
hiraeth: "I'm asking you to be mindful of proportion in regard to the law of the land wherein you live. That DOES make a distinction between murder and tax-evasion. Which, anyhow, are different crimes."
I'm quite mindful of the law of the land wherein I live. In fact, my line of work is tightly constrained by legal compliance. And yes, the law of the land in which I live does make a distinction between murder and tax-evasion. I nowhere disputed this. I simply pointed out that the punishment which the biblical worldview claims its god will dole out for both does not make such a distinction. Eternal damnation is eternal damnation no matter how you slice it. Perhaps you don't think one or the other crime will bring an individual eternal damnation?
hiraeth: "Besides, I do not believe that the Bible teaches that every sin will be punished the same."
I thought according to the bible it's the sinner which is punished, not the sin itself. You're not saying that the sin gets punished, but the sinner gets off Scott free, are you?
hiraeth: "There is clear evidence in Scripture that furnace will be heated differently (see the comment about those who cause 'these little ones' to stumble)."
I'm not sure which comment you're talking about. Are you speaking of the passage in Mark 9:42 which Matthew (at 18:6) and Luke (at 17:2) copied from Mark? I don't see what effectual difference "heating the furnace" differently would do. Ask someone who is condemned to die by burning at the stake if it makes any difference to him whether they use wood or old newspapers to build the pyre. Baking in a furnace whether it's fueled by gas or heated by an electrical filiment will make no difference to the potato you stick in there. So, again, I'm not sure what you mean by "proportion" here.
At any rate, I never accused Hovind of murder per se. I simply used an figure of speech. Whether a statement is literal or figurative seems to make a lot of difference to Christians who put stress on Greek and Hebrew originals. Why would it not also make a difference in their own native language?
My dear Dawson, One. 'Hacked off' refers to getting annoyed, not chopping something off. So it simply refers to me reading your words on a hot day and finding your beligerence pointless. As to the cryptic first sentence, I've forgotten, must be early onset senility.
'The sinner is punished, not the sin itself.' Yes, like the criminal who gets punished, not the crime. As for 'the furnace being heated', I refer not to degrees of heat, but punishment. The furnace is figurative. And yes, you got the reference right. I thought you would, which is why I didn't give it. I would refer you also to the beating of the servants.
I noted in my repy you used a figure of speech, and that that ought to have been that. Again, as with the original complaint, you could simply have agreed, rather than looking for a fight. It is that attitude which causes me annoyance, again, as with the barbs. Why? Why?
On 'weak theism', I refer to the fact that, as a totalitarian, Hitler elevated the state to the place of God.
As for the speculation about totalitarianism, with the usual atheist paranoia about possible totalitarianism. That is your opinion. I happen to disagree with it. I, like every Nonconformist in Britain know precisely from whence my freedoms come, and it was not the atheistical French Revolution which ended with heads rolling, followed by a dictatorship which sought dominion over Europe.
As with the 'inspired by Western religion'. Do not delude yoursef, Dawson, a Dictator can as easily be a Shintoist, an Atheist or a Christian, Western or Eastern.
Besides, old man, if you became a bloodthirsty dictator (which I'm not suggesting you will), later atheists could declare that you had been 'influenced by Western Christianity'.
Truth is, whether the 'greater good' is the Party, the Fatherland', 'God', 'the gods', or whatever, there will be men who will do evil in the name of a cause they believe to be good. What is needed is toleration of perceived error, not some attempt to eradicate those who dissent peacefully.
hireath: "One. 'Hacked off' refers to getting annoyed, not chopping something off."
I understand that. I'm just wondering what it accomplishes for you.
hiraeth: "So it simply refers to me reading your words on a hot day and finding your beligerence pointless."
May I ask, what specifically do you find belligerent about my comments to you?
hireath: "As to the cryptic first sentence, I've forgotten, must be early onset senility."
And I'm belligerent?
hireath: "As for 'the furnace being heated', I refer not to degrees of heat, but punishment. The furnace is figurative."
If you have any points to make here, I haven't seen them yet. You might try being a little more explicit. Above you had said that "there is clear evidence in Scripture that furnace will be heated differently." I'll leave it up to you to explain what exactly you meant.
hireath: "Again, as with the original complaint, you could simply have agreed, rather than looking for a fight. It is that attitude which causes me annoyance, again, as with the barbs."
You seem to think I'm "looking for a fight." I'm not. What gave you this idea?
hireath: "On 'weak theism', I refer to the fact that, as a totalitarian, Hitler elevated the state to the place of God."
If that's the case, I hope we never see what you consider "strong theism." Hitler's "weak theism" was bad enough.
hireath: "As for the speculation about totalitarianism, with the usual atheist paranoia about possible totalitarianism. That is your opinion."
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. I have no idea what you mean by "the usual atheist paranoia about possible totalitarianism." Have you met other atheists who are concerned about the totalitarian implications of religion? And yes, I have many opinions about religion. I don't suppose this will stop the totalitarianists, though.
hireath: "I, like every Nonconformist in Britain know precisely from whence my freedoms come,"
Do you think your freedoms come from "the Bible"? Do you think you have any rights? The bible nowhere elucidates a bill of rights. On the contrary, it gives a list of duties.
hireath: "and it was not the atheistical French Revolution which ended with heads rolling, followed by a dictatorship which sought dominion over Europe."
Who said anything about "the atheistical French Revolution"? Are you supposing that I take it as a model of political reform or something? I don't. I would join you in condemning it. But I would not do so from a platform which undermine's man's rightful autonomy.
hireath: "As with the 'inspired by Western religion'. Do not delude yoursef, Dawson, a Dictator can as easily be a Shintoist, an Atheist or a Christian, Western or Eastern."
No delusions here. I realize that even if one is a Shintoist or an atheist, he can still be influenced by western ideas. Take a lesson from Mao Tse Tung some time. What do you consider to be the essential root of totalitarianism if not a worldview which denies man's right to exist for his own sake?
hireath: "Besides, old man, if you became a bloodthirsty dictator (which I'm not suggesting you will), later atheists could declare that you had been 'influenced by Western Christianity'."
They might be right. If I adopted a worldview which denies man's right to exist for his own sake, which considers the individual to be "nothing without the group," as merely a member of a flock who has a "duty" to sacrifice himself to the group on faith in some quasi-supernatural authority called "the State," I'd say they would have an easy time assembling a case.
hireath: "there will be men who will do evil in the name of a cause they believe to be good."
Yes, and history has shown that those who think their "good" aims are divinely commanded can quickly become unconcerned (supposing they were concerned before) about trampling another man's individual rights. We see this in Islamic states all the time. Do you think people living under a theocracy enjoy individual rights?
hireath: "What is needed is toleration of perceived error, not some attempt to eradicate those who dissent peacefully."
Why do you think "toleration of perceived error" is needed? Needed for what and by whom? As for those who dissent peacefully, in a community based on individual rights, who would be prevented from peaceful dissent, and by whom?
hireath: "As for 'too religious' in the West, Dawson, who are you kidding?"
I'm not kidding anyone.
hireath: "I don't write from America, but from Europe."
If I were in Europe today, I'd be very thankful that the Americans did not turn their other cheek to Hitler. But I don't know many Europeans for their gratitude. Perhaps I'm just not meeting the right ones?
13 comments:
Wow, ol' Dr. Dino sure went out with a bang, didn't he? Did you see how many hundreds of thousands of dollars that guy was pocketing? Holy crap, how much income do you have to generate to owe almost half a million in past due employee withholding taxes? And did you see the sealed indictment? It looks like they were worried he was gonna hole up like Koresh and get into a gun battle with 'em!
What a maroon............
I blogged a few opinions about it too.....
http://damnablog.com
What happened to "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" (Mt. 22:21)? What happened to "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers" (Rom. 13:1)? Looks like we have another lawless theist. Theists are so prone to confusing themselves with the god they imagine that they think they, like the god they worship, can get away with murder.
I'd say it's time Dr. Dino crawls back under his stone-age rock.
Regards,
Dawson
You took the words right out of my mouth, Dawson. It looks like this chap was another self-appointed hypocrite.
But, Dawson, proprtion, please. This gentleman has got his come-uppance for tax evasion, not murder. I know they got Capone over the same charges, but that does NOT make 'Dr. Dino' Al Capone. Tax evasion is wrong, muder is wrong.
But the two are not the same. This chap will pay the penalty for his sin of lawlessness, as is only right, however. Believe me, as a Christian, my thoughts about this chap were the same as yours.
I'm sorry that you think that MMO'H is "my own ilk" just because she shares a disbelief that God exists with me. I don't think that Hitler is "your own ilk" just because he believed in a God, and followed the long-standing traditions of Christianity in his anti-Semitism.
Hovind is slime. Anyone who makes a living leeching off of the naive is.
If MMO'H evaded taxes, and tried to run from the law, then she is just as immoral, although I have to say not quite as slimy, by dint of the fact that Dino makes people believe he represents God and they throw money at him for it (out of their stupidity). MMO'H cannot be faulted for using such a pathetic tactic to gain money, which makes her at least a little less slimy than Hovind, if what you said is true (I've never read the first thing on the woman).
I hope Hovind goes to prison for a LOOOONG time. It isn't like he hasn't been running from the law for 30 years, it's just that he's stayed in this country and used tricks to evade the law, rather than distance and geography.
BTW, Frank, Christians get "busted" every day for things. I don't "whoop". Hovind is a special kind of con man, and one who I would love to see go down whether he was a Jew, Muslim, or Xian (or any other religion), for his lies and deceit in both miseducating the public and in considering himself above the law and taxes.
Sad that you'd think he was a Christian at all. I doubt that he really believes half of what he says.
hiraeth: "But, Dawson, proprtion, please. This gentleman has got his come-uppance for tax evasion, not murder... Tax evasion is wrong, muder is wrong...But the two are not the same. This chap will pay the penalty for his sin of lawlessness."
I'm not sure I follow. You're telling me to be mindful of "proportion," when in fact your worldview teaches that both tax-evasion and murder result in precisely the same punishment, namely eternal damnation? It seems you've misdirected your recommendation. I have merely expressed a passing opinion, and have no jurisdiction over Hovind or murderers, either here in this world, or in the fake environment of the "hereafter."
Regards,
Dawson
It's a literary device, Frank, and a very popular one. It's used to announce that someone is replacing someone else in some office or post. I'm insinuating that Hovind's former reign as Christian creationist extraordinaire is over, and that the succession is now to a low-life criminal (himself).
His game is up, in other words.
But yours, Dawson, does not.
You know something, Dawson. I've long been hacked off with people like you who, having been caught engaging in a little hyperbole go off and make cheap points.
I'm asking you to be mindful of proportion in regard to the law of the land wherein you live. That DOES make a distinction between murder and tax-evasion. Which, anyhow, are different crimes.
Besides, I do not believe that the Bible teaches that every sin will be punished the same. There is clear evidence in Scripture that furnace will be heated differently (see the comment about those who cause 'these little ones' to stumble).
In the end, I condemn what Hovind did, and for the most part I agreed with your comments about him. The man was a fraud and a cheat and got his come-uppance for declaring himself to be against the law. That is a tremendously bad example.
nsfl, I'm glad you can recognise the difference between Hitler and your average Christian. But we have to say that it isn't recognising the Hitlers in this world that is hard, it is recognising the plausible con-artists who live among us, whether Christian or atheist.
And again, less of the cheap 'anti-semitic' jibe. It was the Puritan Oliver Cromwell who allowed the Jews back into England, because of his view of millenial prophecy. Yes, there is a long and dishonourable record of association between Christians and anti-Semites, but as one who stood with a jew against an anti-Semitic sacking, I resent any implication that this has anything to do with true Christianity as much as I'm sure you'd deny that selfish living has to do with atheism.
If you are serious about courtesy, nsfl, you need to stop putting these useless, pointless barbs in your work. You could just have mentioned how Walton would disclaim any connection with anti-semitism, not theism.
Sorry, that should have been 'Hitler because of his twisted version of theism'. I'm still not sure about Hitler and theism, though. If he was a theist, he'd have to have been a weak one. Totalitarianism needs the state to stand in the place of God.
hiraeth: "But yours, Dawson, does not."
Again, you're not making yourself very clear. My *what* "does not" do *what*?
hiraeth: "You know something, Dawson. I've long been hacked off with people like you who, having been caught engaging in a little hyperbole go off and make cheap points."
No, I didn't know this. Now that you've been doing it for a while, what have you achieved by "hacking off"?
hiraeth: "I'm asking you to be mindful of proportion in regard to the law of the land wherein you live. That DOES make a distinction between murder and tax-evasion. Which, anyhow, are different crimes."
I'm quite mindful of the law of the land wherein I live. In fact, my line of work is tightly constrained by legal compliance. And yes, the law of the land in which I live does make a distinction between murder and tax-evasion. I nowhere disputed this. I simply pointed out that the punishment which the biblical worldview claims its god will dole out for both does not make such a distinction. Eternal damnation is eternal damnation no matter how you slice it. Perhaps you don't think one or the other crime will bring an individual eternal damnation?
hiraeth: "Besides, I do not believe that the Bible teaches that every sin will be punished the same."
I thought according to the bible it's the sinner which is punished, not the sin itself. You're not saying that the sin gets punished, but the sinner gets off Scott free, are you?
hiraeth: "There is clear evidence in Scripture that furnace will be heated differently (see the comment about those who cause 'these little ones' to stumble)."
I'm not sure which comment you're talking about. Are you speaking of the passage in Mark 9:42 which Matthew (at 18:6) and Luke (at 17:2) copied from Mark? I don't see what effectual difference "heating the furnace" differently would do. Ask someone who is condemned to die by burning at the stake if it makes any difference to him whether they use wood or old newspapers to build the pyre. Baking in a furnace whether it's fueled by gas or heated by an electrical filiment will make no difference to the potato you stick in there. So, again, I'm not sure what you mean by "proportion" here.
At any rate, I never accused Hovind of murder per se. I simply used an figure of speech. Whether a statement is literal or figurative seems to make a lot of difference to Christians who put stress on Greek and Hebrew originals. Why would it not also make a difference in their own native language?
Regards,
Dawson
My dear Dawson,
One. 'Hacked off' refers to getting annoyed, not chopping something off. So it simply refers to me reading your words on a hot day and finding your beligerence pointless. As to the cryptic first sentence, I've forgotten, must be early onset senility.
'The sinner is punished, not the sin itself.' Yes, like the criminal who gets punished, not the crime. As for 'the furnace being heated', I refer not to degrees of heat, but punishment. The furnace is figurative. And yes, you got the reference right. I thought you would, which is why I didn't give it. I would refer you also to the beating of the servants.
I noted in my repy you used a figure of speech, and that that ought to have been that. Again, as with the original complaint, you could simply have agreed, rather than looking for a fight. It is that attitude which causes me annoyance, again, as with the barbs. Why? Why?
On 'weak theism', I refer to the fact that, as a totalitarian, Hitler elevated the state to the place of God.
As for the speculation about totalitarianism, with the usual atheist paranoia about possible totalitarianism. That is your opinion. I happen to disagree with it. I, like every Nonconformist in Britain know precisely from whence my freedoms come, and it was not the atheistical French Revolution which ended with heads rolling, followed by a dictatorship which sought dominion over Europe.
As with the 'inspired by Western religion'. Do not delude yoursef, Dawson, a Dictator can as easily be a Shintoist, an Atheist or a Christian, Western or Eastern.
Besides, old man, if you became a bloodthirsty dictator (which I'm not suggesting you will), later atheists could declare that you had been 'influenced by Western Christianity'.
Truth is, whether the 'greater good' is the Party, the Fatherland', 'God', 'the gods', or whatever, there will be men who will do evil in the name of a cause they believe to be good. What is needed is toleration of perceived error, not some attempt to eradicate those who dissent peacefully.
As for 'too religious' in the West, Dawson, who are you kidding?
I don't write from America, but from Europe.
hireath: "One. 'Hacked off' refers to getting annoyed, not chopping something off."
I understand that. I'm just wondering what it accomplishes for you.
hiraeth: "So it simply refers to me reading your words on a hot day and finding your beligerence pointless."
May I ask, what specifically do you find belligerent about my comments to you?
hireath: "As to the cryptic first sentence, I've forgotten, must be early onset senility."
And I'm belligerent?
hireath: "As for 'the furnace being heated', I refer not to degrees of heat, but punishment. The furnace is figurative."
If you have any points to make here, I haven't seen them yet. You might try being a little more explicit. Above you had said that "there is clear evidence in Scripture that furnace will be heated differently." I'll leave it up to you to explain what exactly you meant.
hireath: "Again, as with the original complaint, you could simply have agreed, rather than looking for a fight. It is that attitude which causes me annoyance, again, as with the barbs."
You seem to think I'm "looking for a fight." I'm not. What gave you this idea?
hireath: "On 'weak theism', I refer to the fact that, as a totalitarian, Hitler elevated the state to the place of God."
If that's the case, I hope we never see what you consider "strong theism." Hitler's "weak theism" was bad enough.
hireath: "As for the speculation about totalitarianism, with the usual atheist paranoia about possible totalitarianism. That is your opinion."
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. I have no idea what you mean by "the usual atheist paranoia about possible totalitarianism." Have you met other atheists who are concerned about the totalitarian implications of religion? And yes, I have many opinions about religion. I don't suppose this will stop the totalitarianists, though.
hireath: "I, like every Nonconformist in Britain know precisely from whence my freedoms come,"
Do you think your freedoms come from "the Bible"? Do you think you have any rights? The bible nowhere elucidates a bill of rights. On the contrary, it gives a list of duties.
hireath: "and it was not the atheistical French Revolution which ended with heads rolling, followed by a dictatorship which sought dominion over Europe."
Who said anything about "the atheistical French Revolution"? Are you supposing that I take it as a model of political reform or something? I don't. I would join you in condemning it. But I would not do so from a platform which undermine's man's rightful autonomy.
hireath: "As with the 'inspired by Western religion'. Do not delude yoursef, Dawson, a Dictator can as easily be a Shintoist, an Atheist or a Christian, Western or Eastern."
No delusions here. I realize that even if one is a Shintoist or an atheist, he can still be influenced by western ideas. Take a lesson from Mao Tse Tung some time. What do you consider to be the essential root of totalitarianism if not a worldview which denies man's right to exist for his own sake?
hireath: "Besides, old man, if you became a bloodthirsty dictator (which I'm not suggesting you will), later atheists could declare that you had been 'influenced by Western Christianity'."
They might be right. If I adopted a worldview which denies man's right to exist for his own sake, which considers the individual to be "nothing without the group," as merely a member of a flock who has a "duty" to sacrifice himself to the group on faith in some quasi-supernatural authority called "the State," I'd say they would have an easy time assembling a case.
hireath: "there will be men who will do evil in the name of a cause they believe to be good."
Yes, and history has shown that those who think their "good" aims are divinely commanded can quickly become unconcerned (supposing they were concerned before) about trampling another man's individual rights. We see this in Islamic states all the time. Do you think people living under a theocracy enjoy individual rights?
hireath: "What is needed is toleration of perceived error, not some attempt to eradicate those who dissent peacefully."
Why do you think "toleration of perceived error" is needed? Needed for what and by whom? As for those who dissent peacefully, in a community based on individual rights, who would be prevented from peaceful dissent, and by whom?
hireath: "As for 'too religious' in the West, Dawson, who are you kidding?"
I'm not kidding anyone.
hireath: "I don't write from America, but from Europe."
If I were in Europe today, I'd be very thankful that the Americans did not turn their other cheek to Hitler. But I don't know many Europeans for their gratitude. Perhaps I'm just not meeting the right ones?
Regards,
Dawson
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